Former Senator blasts Clintons on Michigan “vote”

“What happened in Michigan is not very different from what used to happen in the old Soviet Union.  The Clinton machine manipulated the ballot. They don’t care how they win, only that they do. It’s wrong and people need to know that.”

That’s not a quote from a member of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy, though it could be, it’s from former Michigan Democratic Senator Don Riegle.  Seems even he realizes the Clinton’s word isn’t worth at paper it’s misprinted on.

In other news, the Net-Nuts are still on the “Hillary stole New Hampshire” trail. 

They don’t like voting machines, they don’t like punch-cards (think Florida and the allegation that Democratic voters couldn’t punch through a freaking chad when a child could) and you begin to wonder how these people propose we vote. 

We will say, however, since voter fraud is a hallmark of the Democrats, we wouldn’t at all be surprised if it were true…


3 Responses to “Former Senator blasts Clintons on Michigan “vote””

  1. 1 kankan
    January 16, 2008 at 7:57 pm

    If it makes me “nuts”, so be it, count me as one of those nuts that thinks our voting systems should be publicly verifiable with good accounting controls.

    On your point….”you begin to wonder how these people propose we vote”. Why are you wondering? There are great options to our currently unreliable, very expensive, and very insecure voting methods. These options are all well publicized and have been throroughly vetted. Also any quick blog review will show that net-nuts voting rights activist overwheliming favor publically hand-count paper ballots. So why do you wonder how these people propose we vote.

    As a voting rights activist, my expressed concerns with the flaws in the existing system is not just the grumpy need complain about things, no matter what as you seem to imply. In fact, my concerns about the problems with machine vote counts are based on the knowledge that there are much better options that we keep overlooking in our attempt to implement technologies that are unproven or worse, have been proven to be hackable and unreliable. I want better, more secure, more cost-effective solutions and I know they are availabe. That is how I propose we vote.

    A quick one or two hours of reading of reports and research available on the subject of securing our vote counts will show there are solid, well-thought, and proven methods to hand-count paper ballots, or electronically count them with automatic, random, hand-count audits, that will provide much more secure and publicly verifiable vote counting than current methods. These proven paper-ballot hand-counting methods assure public review while maintaining voter privacy. As an example, many NH precincts do successfully and quickly hand-count ballots while implementing good controls that significantly minimize the chance of fraud. (However, more than 80 percent of the NH precincts unfortunately rely on non-updated machines/technology that have been shown to be hackable and are in almost sole control of a private vendor). There are also good chain-of-custody paper ballot methods/examples for the printing, transporation and storage of paper ballots before the election (and after, in the event of recount being requested) similar to chain-of-custody and controls used in the printing and distribution of things like lottery tickets and US currency.

    Other countries such as Ireland and Canada have found successful ways of hand-counting paper ballots in quick, cost-efficient, and publicly verifiable ways. Why pay a ton of money for machines that have software/memory cards that are not publicly reviewable, need constant maintainence and updating, rely on the one hundred precent integrity of outside consultants who are often are the only ones that understand how the machine/software work, when, instead, we can simply hand count paper ballots. Something anybody can check and understand. Hand-counted paper ballots would not only allow simple public verification but also cost less and get rid of a common problem in the past recent elections that have used expensive voting machins: the lack of enough voting machines to accomodate big surges in voter turnout, or machine breakdowns at some precincts, that have caused long lines.

    You are right to say Dems have committed vote fraud. Repubs rightly are also very concerned and informed about voter ID fraud, this no doubt can and probably does happen at times. So why not be are concerned about other types of vote fraud, like rigging the count. Why consider those that are concerned about count rigging as nuts? Are those concerned of voter ID fraud nuts? I don’t think so. Seems like a common sense concern to me. Any type of vote fraud is a threat, not just they type Repubs tend to think hurts them the most. You might think homeless and illegal immigrant voting for Dems is the biggest problem for Repubs. But if the Dems wanted to rig an election, might they not find electronic machine vote counting rigging as good, if not better way to rig an election. If vote counting fraud can occur and possibilities of it are not seriously considered or investigated, it could hurt either party. I am assuming Democrats could mess with electronic vote machines/software just as effectively as Republicans, unless you think Dems are not capable of being that devious.

    In NH, most the vote counting questions surround the Democratic primary, and involve concerns about a Democratic Secretary of State, so I’m not sure why someone’s desire for clean voting should be seen as partisan thing. In fact, these “net-nuts” might be doing the Repubs a favor by taking on and potentially exposing any real problems there are with a Democratically run NH State election system that will be tallying Presidential votes of both the Repub and Dem candidates in November.

    At the worst, what the voting activists are asking for are systems that citizens of all stripes could use to ensure elections are fair and clean, how is this a bad thing for anybody but cheaters? If you think past elections that favored Republicans were clean and fair, and the only ones messed with were the Democratically won elections, such as in Chicago, as most Republicans seem to firmly believe and probably rightly so; then why not implement every practical vote fraud control possible, including secure verifiable vote counting.

    Also, over the past 15 years, some county officials of various party affliations(who are often have large control of local voting processes) have been caught embezzling government money, dealing drugs etc…so its not a stretch that such criminals might also be willing to rig elections for their friends or for money. So just like the accounting controls used to discover and prosecute the theft of funds, and the police investigation methods used to discover the drug dealing, we should have good auditing of vote counting and the willingness to invesitgate voting fraud issues rather than just dismissing anybody that asks questions about vote counting. Sometimes the numbers just look weird, but nobody is doing anything wrong, and sometimes the numbers look wrong because somebody is cooking the books. People do cheat. Why blindly trust when you can easily check and audit.

    Your comment seems to imply those criticizing current voting methods wouldn’t be happy with anything. That you think this, shows you are not familiar with our vote counting options, nor with what most voting “net-nuts” want (public hand-counting of paper ballots) and nor with the merits of and problems with the various existing vote counting options. Because you are coming from an apparent point of ignorance on this (hopefully that is temporary, if you take just a little time to get up to speed on these issues), I think its a bit of a stretch for you to be calling people nuts for questioning current electronic vote counting machines.

    Hopefully the Clinton machine will avoid any attempt to rig the general elections if Hillary wins the Dem nomination. Hopefully they will be good and honorable and honest people, but I am not about to trust them on that. If you don’t like the Clintons, I’d also be asking some questions about NH.

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